In that post and others since I said that in my ideal world government would not be in the marriage business. Marriage would be a religious rather than a civil distinction and that governments should recognise civil union regardless of the genders of the individuals involved. Recently some moderates have embraced this position. I consider my position to be ideologically conservative and libertarian.
Warning: Reading the post I wrote almost a year ago could ruin your day.
Now that the New Jersey legislature is considering adapting "marriage equality" this debate is again at the forefront and it is less of an academic exercise than it was a year ago.
As is usually the case, there is too much demagoguery on both sides of this issue.
Those for "marriage equality" are railing about "civil unions" not being equal to marriages and telling stories of cases where civil partners' rights under New Jersey law have been violated. They are making a political case where they should be making judicial cases, if what they really wanted was their equal rights under New Jersey law.
Unfortunately, calling "civil unions" "marriages" won't end the bigotry and discrimination that homosexuals face daily. That will take time, law enforcement and litigation and a cultural shift. This debate is part of the cultural shift, not the end of it.
Same sex couples have been granted the same rights as heterosexual married couples under New Jersey law. The real problem is with federal law. Federal law does not recognise civil partnerships as marriages in all cases. I know a same sex couple wherein one of the partners is not a U.S citizen. She is German. She jumps through all kinds of difficult hoops to remain with her partner legally in the U.S. and she has to return "home" to Germany periodically for extended stays, forcing separations from her loving partner. This couple wouldn't have to suffer through this if they were married. This is the only case in my admittedly non-exhaustive search that I have found that New Jersey same sex partners not enjoying equal rights to heterosexual married partners.
Those opposing same sex marriage are also employing demagoguery. They argue that marriage between one man and one woman should have unique status because of those unions ability to procreate, because of a mother and father under the same roof is "the best" family unit and because traditional marriage is the foundation of our society.
The problem with these arguments is that they have already been lost. Procreation already happens other than the old fashion way. Same sex couples are already raising children. If traditional marriage and the traditional "Ozzie and Harriet" family unit is the foundation of our society, we have already crumbled. Some would argue that we have.
If our society were to embrace the philosophy of those arguing against same sex marriage for reasons of tradition, how long would it be before we were enforcing laws against adultery and sodomy. A long time, but it wasn't that long ago in our history that our governments were enforcing those laws.
The problem with my ideal, that marriage become a religious distinction rather than a civil distinction, is one of political expediency. Those political leaders who have embraced this idea are not leading a political fight to convert all government sanctioned marriages to civil unions. They are using the argument as politically correct cover for avoiding the issue.
The fact is that marriage is a civil distinction. It is probably more of a civil distinction than a religious distinction.
It seems to me that separating civil unions from religious marriage would be a boom for religions. But religions don't see it that way, as NJ's Catholic Bishops's letter to their flock would indicate. It seems to me that as government grows, religions influence in American society declines. If government were to stop sanctioning marriages, I think more people would turn to religions to explore and affirm the sanctity of the unions and families that they now take for granted or ignore.
Since religions are relying on government to define marriage, who am I to argue?
As a freedom loving conservative, I don't see how I can support the government giving me special rights because of my sexual orientation, or denying rights to others based on theirs.
The good news from the Bishops' Letter is that they seem to be affirming homosexuality as a legitimate rather than a sinful lifestyle:
"We must always remember that every person has an inherent dignity because he or she is created in the image and likeness of God, and that God loves every person as a unique individual. Like all other human beings, our homosexual brothers and sisters are beloved children of God. As a result, the Catholic Church affirms that they “must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in this regard should be avoided” [Catechism of the Catholic Church no. 2358].
Thus the teachings of the Church make it clear that the fundamental human rights of homosexual persons must be defended, and that all of us must strive to eliminate any forms of injustice, oppression, or violence against homosexual persons."
That is a cultural shift that should be nurished.
8 comments:
I said it in your last post and I'll say it again here, the government has made marriage a business of selling a license and I believe you and I agree, the best solution is if the government got out of the marriage business all together and leaves the sacrament/ceremony/institution to the churches/religious organizations.
Further, I'd like to add this: I for one am tired of being discriminated against for being too cheap to purchase a "license" from the government in order to form a relationship with my significant other.
In my opinion, all people should be FatAlSharpton-like Outraged that they have to pay the government a tax to have a consenting relationship with another adult.
Worth quoting: "You can't legislate morality." - Goldwater
Marriage has a sacred and a secular component. CXhurchs are in charge of the sacred portion and they can decide who they want to marry.
The Government can decide to recognize it or not and by recognizing it they bestow upon it certain secular benefits and protections.
Their decision on whether to bestow those benefits and protections should be based on wether or not government feels the relationship is beneficial to society. The majority consensus has been has been that hetreosexual marriage should be encouraged as it is stabilizes familial relationships and is the basic building block of our society. Therefore government bestows benefits and protections on the marriage to encourage it. While this model has been attacked by some I, like most people believe the government is right. Heterosexual marriage is beneficial to society and should be encouraged.
With regard to Homosexual Marriage the debate should NOT BE CENTERED ON FAIRNESS. The debate should be centered on wHether it is beneficial to society to encourage Gay marriage. Does it deserve a governmental stamp of approvaql and all that goes with that?
This issue can hardly be debated in one blog posting but it is where the debate should start.
"The problem with these arguments is that they have already been lost. Procreation already happens other than the old fashion way. Same sex couples are already raising children. If traditional marriage and the traditional 'Ozzie and Harriet' family unit is the foundation of our society, we have already crumbled. Some would argue that we have."
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Yes... we have already crumbled. And I don't think we begin to dig out/rebuild by institutionalizing a definition of marriage which has never existed in thousands of years of human history. Just because science/the courts can blur the edges doesn't mean that they've created a substitute for the real thing. That's the worst kind of governmental overreaching into the social sphere.
There's much love in my blogging heart for MoreMonmouthMusings (in a platonic way, of course), but we're going to agree to disagree on this one, Art.
Quite a few Monmouth Democrats signed onto Booker's letter today
http://www.politickernj.com/editor/35181/over-200-key-dems-push-legislature-pass-marriage-equality
I see Bradley Beach Mayor Julie Shreck, Vin Gopal, Red Bank Councilman Ed Zipprich, Mike Beson, Roosevelt Democrats Chairwoman Ann Baker and a few others.
Art, in no way whatsoever have the Catholic bishops suggested that homosexuality is a "legitimate rather than a sinful lifestyle." You err considerably when you suggest as much.
Jim McMahon said...
Art, in no way whatsoever have the Catholic bishops suggested that homosexuality is a "legitimate rather than a sinful lifestyle." You err considerably when you suggest as much.
Jim,
I think they did. I point to the following sentance from their letter:
"Persons of same-sex orientation have the right to live as they choose but they do not have the right to redefine marriage for everyone by altering the civil law."
By acknowledging sexual orientation, the bishops also acknowledge that homosexuality is not a choice that people make, but rather something that they are, or were created as.
How can that be a sin?
Art,
While the Church indeed teaches that human beings who are attracted to the same sex are to be loved as any other child of God. The Church in NO way teaches that it is an acceptable sexual act. It does teach that they must abstain from their desires - just as unmarried heterosexuals must abstain from sexual acts.
A quote from the Catholic Bishops
"Because of both Original Sin and personal sin, moral disorder is all too common in our
world. There are a variety of acts, such as adultery, fornication, masturbation, and contraception,
that violate the proper ends of human sexuality. Homosexual acts also violate the true purpose of
sexuality. They are sexual acts that cannot be open to life. Nor do they reflect the
complementarity of man and woman that is an integral part of God’s design for human
sexuality.Consequently, the Catholic Church has consistently taught that homosexual acts “are
contrary to the natural law. . . . Under no circumstances can they be approved.”
While I respect your position, if you don't understand Catholic Theology, you should probably think twice before claiming that the Catholic Bishops are condoning homosexuality.
As adults they should be afforded some legal avenue to be able to transfer property, or health and end of life decisions to a person of their choice.
I'm not saying this is your position, but to grant them the right to marry opens up a Pandora's box. If it is open to more than just the traditional man and woman, where does it end. Any consenting adults would then be able to make a legal argument for the same rights. You wouldn't be able to stop polygamy, which any aliens who are engaged in can not migrate to the United States, similar to the couple you mentioned. The USC can not petition for her German lover to become a legal resident, the same legal principle applies to aliens who are polygamists, if you open the door legally to one, how can you make the legal argument to close it to the other.
We banned people with aids from migrating to the US, as we do with other contagious diseases, but because of the strength of the Gay lobby, and because of a lack of knowledge of US Immigration laws, that is being overturned.
It's a slippery slope...but a tough issue on both sides.
Michael Borg said
While I respect your position, if you don't understand Catholic Theology, you should probably think twice before claiming that the Catholic Bishops are condoning homosexuality.
Thank you Michael. I respect your position and value the discourse you bring to this blog. If you read my post(s) carefully, you'll see I haven't taken a position, rather I've raised questions.
Regarding my knowledge of Catholic theology, I admit I could use some brushing up. It has been 30 years since I actively engaged in such questions with the Jesuits at Georgetown.
A few years ago at an alumni college day at Fordam in Lincoln Center, two of my favorite Jesuit professors came up from Washington to lead a forum on The DaVinci Code The auditorium was packed with NY area alumni.
Father Walsh started off with a brief and dismisive review of the book and asked for question. There was a long and uncomfortable silence in this room full of the best educated and wealthiest Catholics in America. To get things started, I asked "Did Constantine invent Christ's divinity?" That was the most controversial claim of the book and Father Walsh skipped over it in his review.
A lively discussion broke out. Father Walsh had a bad day. Another Jesuit, the beloved Father Otto Hentz had to finish the presentation.
Back to this current debate. I was addressing the NJ Bishops letter when I stated that the Bishops seemed to be acknowledging the legitamacy of homosexual relationships. I appreciate your quote from the Bishops, which was not part of that letter:
"Because of both Original Sin and personal sin, moral disorder is all too common in our
world. There are a variety of acts, such as adultery, fornication, masturbation, and contraception,
that violate the proper ends of human sexuality. Homosexual acts also violate the true purpose of
sexuality. They are sexual acts that cannot be open to life. Nor do they reflect the
complementarity of man and woman that is an integral part of God’s design for human
sexuality.Consequently, the Catholic Church has consistently taught that homosexual acts “are
contrary to the natural law. . . . Under no circumstances can they be approved.”
The Church condems sexual acts that are contrary to natural law. Homosexual acts, as well as adultery, fornication, contraception and masterbation.
Given the overall decline in the size of families, including Catholic families, it would seem that the majority of Catholic couples are living outside of the ideal. Either that, or they are remarkably effective in the rthym method. You know what they call couples who practice the rthym method.
Yet the Church does not want to stop calling the unions of the majority of their flock "marriages." Even though that majority has no intention of repenting or striving for the ideal. The majority are "cafeteria Catholics" and the Bishops know it.
My point is that Church law and civil law should remain distinct. The Church should not be threatened by the distinction, rather they should embrace it and lead their flock to seek the ideal within their flock. They should seek to expand the flock through loving conversion, without reliance on the government to maintain a false ideal.
Regarding the Pandora's box and slippery slope...I don't see that as big a risk as you apparently do. I don't think polygamy will threaten our society, nor do I think those who chose to live that way should be classified as criminals. I'd rather the law err on the side of freedom than regulating intimate human behavior, especially since people are going to do what they are oriented to do, regardless of the legality of those action. I think that is natural law.
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